Ask an Atheist with Sam Mulvey

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"Dogmatic Feminism" Pt. 2, and Some Other Things

There are things in this post that I will apologize for, and then there are other things I will not apologize for.

Here’s part 2 of our discussion from Tuesday morning, and if I had my druthers, I’d ditch or re-record it for technical quality reasons.  It’s blaming tools, I know, but my headphones started failing during this recording and I didn’t hear the peaking in the middle of the conversation.   I’ve since purchased new headphones.

After the cut, more discussion about Ophelia Benson and stuff.

 

Ophelia Benson’s Response to Our Response: A Silly Metadiscussion

Yesterday, Becky posted an email from Ophelia Benson, and her response to it.   Since then, Ophelia has pointed out that she believes that we posted her email without permission.   Even if we thought that posting her email is wrong, the accusation in and of itself is baseless.

I am not in the habit of publishing emails which are not intended for the public, and when Becky let me know that she planned on posting the email to the website, I asked her if she had received permission, direct or implied, to do so.   Becky believed that she had explicitly received permission to respond publicly, referring to this part of the email:

Could you give a specific example on my post on the podcast or on yours or here but with permission to quote you?

We agreed with Becky’s assessment that this constituted permission to respond publicly as Ophelia’s never been on our podcast. When we respond publicly, we are always careful to quote what we are responding to so there can be no misrepresentation. We felt that an open response in an open debate was the best way to move forward– context is hard enough to preserve in online debates already, and Becky deserves to make her statements without editorialization from opponents just as much as Ophelia does.

I have to admit that I’m baffled by Ophelia’s response over this.  First and foremost, her request was a good one and deserved attention and considered response.  Nothing private or untoward was revealed, and I felt that her request spoke well of her: she was willing to look in her writings to see if she could see the dogma that Becky had referred to but had not yet provided evidence for.   Keep in mind, I think this speaks well of Ophelia even if she ultimately disagrees with Becky.  She may be unhappy at the critique Becky brings to the discussion, but it appeared that there’s room in her world for Becky to be right.  When I stand up and say something, I hope to be in the same mindset.

Furthermore, evidence from blogs at FTB makes it apparent that posting emails without permission is generally acceptable practice.

When Becky posted the response I made an off-hand, silly comment: “CRISWELL PREDICTS: The response will get darker from here.”    I didn’t back that up, because it was a silly comment intending to be silly, but I believed it.  I never thought that the direction of the dark response would be from “Butterflies and Wheels.”  She’s taken to sniping at Mike in her blog just to make it clear that she intends to continue using shame as a primary, if not the primary, motivator for her work in this realm.

If I were to guess, I’d guess that her social media shenanigans about her email are her attempts put us on the defensive  and to cast us not only as people who disagree with her, but as bad people generally.   It seems that there is no room in her world for people who disagree with her approach (or tone, or framing) but agree with her in principle.  To approach her on feminist subjects with something other than complete agreement with message and mode is to be, at best, a naive poison, and at worst, a supporter of rapists and abusers.

Ophelia’s motivations are known only by her, of course.   But I think this response, that good people can’t disagree with her, is the ultimate evidence of a dogmatic approach to feminism in an otherwise very rational person.  I think her ability to scare up social media attention at the smallest of perceived slights is the ultimate proof that we needed to make our voices heard on this subject.

The ERV Comment Train is Coming to a Stop

I think at this point I’ve made clear my intentions on allowing ERV folks to run roughshod over some of the comments on this site.   The experiment is over, and this is now going to end.  Here’s the deal: we’ll be closing commentary on some blog posts, but we’ll be keeping comments on the episode open for the foreseeable future or until circumstances change.  That said, no one is calling anyone else a cunt, starting now.   We allowed it to some extent to make the point that misogyny remains a problem, and thanks for proving it.   No more.

If this discussion bleeds into other discussions on Ask an Atheist it will be curtailed.

And now, a request.   I voiced my low thoughts about the ERV discussions in this podcast, but I also said that I thought there were some good people who’ve been thrown into that mix.   Some of them I suspect started out in a situation like the one we find ourselves in now.   If you think I’m referring to you and you use phrases like “baboon” about bloggers on FTB, I’m asking you to reconsider using them.  It sounds misogynistic to many people regardless of your reasons, and it does nothing to further the cause of atheism, skepticism, rationalism, or feminism.    If you just want to snipe at people like Stephanie Zvan and Ophelia Benson, I’m probably not talking to you.

On Ask an Atheist moderation will look unfavorably on people using these phrases.  Outside of Ask an Atheist I doubt anyone will take me up on it, but I feel better having said it.

New Week, New Episode

When Becky opened up this topic last week, I said that “we can’t discuss the infighting without inviting it to sit at the table with us for a little while.”  We’ve said what we’ve needed to say, for the most part, and we are ready to move on to other things now.   We’ll try to practice what we preach and use our proposed framework when we deal with feminism-related issues.   We may also return to this subject specifically some other day.   We’re content to let the two battling parties have the last word about our commentary of their battle.

This week’s episode is the culmination of a long discussion we’ve had on the subject of abortion.   Please see Mike’s post about it in May.  It’s a special episode with a wide variety of guests, so calls will be limited and related to the subject at hand.   If you want to ask us questions about last week’s episode, please stick to voice mail and emails this week.

 

Edited: Word removed in editing readded.

About the Author: Sam Mulvey

Sam Mulvey is a producer and the technical brain behind Ask an Atheist. He is a collector of vinegar varieties, vintage computers, antique radios, and propaganda.

KiwiInOz
Guest
KiwiInOz
4 years 1 month ago
“Some of them I suspect started out in a situation like the one we find ourselves in now.” Yes. Yes, we did. “If you think I’m referring to you and you use phrases like “baboon” about bloggers on FTB, I’m asking you to reconsider using them.” I don’t use this turn of phrase or some of the other salty terms. However, my understanding of the use of the term baboon is that it is more related to the mob behaviour of baboons to outsiders. It’s along the lines of chimps throwing poo, rather than being a misogynistic term directed at… Read more »
Sally Strange
Guest
Sally Strange
4 years 1 month ago
When you linked to Natalie Reed’s “Feminist Dogma” post… did you realize that it was not even tangentially related to the point you’re trying to make? That it… contradicts it, in fact? You are insisting that feminism can be dogmatic in its application. Natalie Reed was writing about how feminism is a field of inquiry more than it is an ideology, and that there’s really only one point of dogmatic insistence: that women are human beings, with all the rights and responsibilities attendant thereto. Then you identified the following comment as being “one of the most egregious characterizations of atheist… Read more »
Phil Giordana FCD
Guest
4 years 1 month ago

Your blog, your rules.

There will be no “cunt” or other slurs from me (well, there hasn’t been for almost a year, but whatever).

However, how is calling FTBers “baboons” misogynist? I don’t get that. We usually call them that due to their attitude toward anyone they think of as “enemies”. There is nothing even remotely related to gender in this appelation.

Phil Giordana FCD
Guest
4 years 1 month ago

Sally Strange: I would say this part:

“Telling women that sexual harassment, rape, sexual assault, and reproductive rights is not of concern to the male-dominated atheist community and its organizations is telling women that we are not important enough to matter.”

Noone in the atheist/skeptic community ever, EVER told women these things. Please prove me wrong, and I will recant.

John C. Welch
Guest
4 years 1 month ago
So let me get this straight: if you’re from a specific site that other people don’t like, you’re “on watch”. For things you may or may not have said. (I highly doubt you read all the comments sam, but that’s okay, most of the people bagging on ERV don’t actually read full comment strings. They read the quote mining others have done and make up their minds based on that. It’s okay, it’s what I’ve learned to expect from the Skeptic/Atheist community at FTB. Why spend a lot of time doing your own work when you can just buy into… Read more »
Justicar
Guest
4 years 1 month ago

I guess this means that PZ’s lecture on baboons won’t be welcome here, huh?

Sam, I love you. You’re one of the best internet trolls I’ve met; you’ve got skills. Publicity and all.

Not a new media douchebag at all – dash cunning.

Spence
Guest
Spence
4 years 1 month ago
I suppose you set a thief to catch a thief, and in this case, Sam has extended that principle by using dogma to fight dogma. It’s a shame, because I think Becky has a keen eye for recognising dogma and made good points, but Sam seems unable to see dogma in his own writing. Sam, you insist you allowed the “c” word to prove that misogyny exists in the atheist community. I assume by that you mean someone has used it in that way here. Justicar noted at ERV he was unaware of any such use. Being a skeptic, I… Read more »
Darren
Guest
Darren
4 years 1 month ago

I’d like to use HTML blockquote here, but am unsure if this board allows it, and there is no preview, so plain old text will have to do:

Sam: “I don’t think anyone out-and-out called someone the c-word, *but there were some pretty heavy references to it*”

Such as?

Justicar
Guest
4 years 1 month ago
Well, I hate to sound dense, but I still fail to see the supposed evidence here that misogyny has happened here. So, if someone could link to where it happened I’d appreciate it – it would be nice to finally, after all this time, have a clear example of what it is that constitutes a show of the ‘hatred or dislike of women or girls’ that Sam references above. In particular, the bit mentioned under the heading of the ERV comment train. I fully grant that many of us are snarky, but smart ass commentary does not a hater of… Read more »
Darren
Guest
Darren
4 years 1 month ago

Sam,

I just did some digging… Is the following comment by Justicar the one you refer to when you say you “challenged him” on the thread (for stepping too close to the line)?

http://askanatheist.tv/2012/06/12/dogmatic-feminism-discussion-podcast-part-1/comment-page-1/#comment-10093

Justicar
Guest
4 years 1 month ago

Right. I wrote that. And nowhere in that do I call anyone anything. I translate into plain English what it is that is meant by ‘slimepit’. And then I point out that so long as one uses code to call Abbie that special word it’s perfectly acceptable in a way that not using code isn’t okay, and it’s not okay if the target of it is anyone other than one of the ‘gender traitor’s or ‘sister punishers’.

Darren
Guest
Darren
4 years 1 month ago

Yeah, I agree with you there, Justi. I’m just trying to understand the perspective Sam is coming from. You’re comment in the above linked thread (censoring mine):

“Unless, of course, Abbie being the enemy justifies her being a slutty c**t in a way that Ophelia Benson approves of because it’s Abbie, but disapproves of if it’s Rebecca Watson.”

I can understand how Sam may have seen this as stepping too close to the line if he is not familiar with Ophelia’s history of using c**t as a pejorative against those she does approve of. It was a very subtle reference.

Justicar
Guest
4 years 1 month ago
I’m usually subtle like a lead pipe. I’ll endeavor in the future to be more direct in my speech. But if that be the post he had in mind, I’m happy to apologize for it and retract it. Besides, it’s not like anyone with google and some free time can’t go back through all of it and figure it out for themselves. Now that I think about, someone mentioned AaA was a tv show once. If that’s the case, then I think bionicdance used to be associated with the show, and I have in fact heard of it. No clue… Read more »
Darren
Guest
Darren
4 years 1 month ago

Oops… “those she does approve of” should read, “those she does *not* approve of”, in my comment above. You all probably guessed that, but just for the record.

Fabricio
Guest
Fabricio
4 years 1 month ago

This…. this means that the waste of time is finally over? The discussions about who banned who on what blog will hold no more? Thank you, then!

I hope we won’t need that Aquaman Month I mentioned to compensate for this. Please tell Mike I was kidding. I respect his opinion, but Aquaman sucks.

John C. Welch
Guest
4 years 1 month ago
Oh I’ll totally cop to having used “cunt” other places. Two reasons: 1) To argue that words aren’t magical. Just like racist slurs have never, ever, solely by their use, caused someone who is NOT already a racist to become one, “cunt” did not somehow alter the thoughts, behaviors and way of living of a person who hears it to become a misogynist. Words are not magical. Yet, that is something Ophelia has argued for over and over. That simply by using or hearing the word, regardless of context, it turns the user into a misogynist automagically, almost forces the… Read more »
Spence
Guest
Spence
4 years 1 month ago
Wow. I managed to miss Justicar’s use. Very sloppy of me. Thanks for filling in the gap in my original list, Darren. Sam, thanks for the reply. A reminder of what you wrote above: That said, no one is calling anyone else a c***, starting now. OK, this is a simple statement about your expectations of the future. We allowed it to some extent This is what I have a problem with. That impersonal pronoun. We really are in Alice in Wonderland territory here. What does “it” mean? Within the context of your blog post, it can only refer to… Read more »
Thaumas Themelios
Guest
4 years 1 month ago
@John C. Welsh, et al: I’m not trying to ‘call you out’, but perhaps for the time being we could all agree to use a starred-out version like “c***” or just ‘the c-word’, as a show of willingness to allow the AaA folks to set their desired atmosphere for their own website. A kind of truce flag, if you will. Until it becomes clear to everyone that we’re not trying to ‘get away with’ using the word without ‘using the word’. Again, I’m not trying to be some sort of language police. I have no authority to be so, nor… Read more »
Thaumas Themelios
Guest
4 years 1 month ago

@John C. Welsh: (Oops, forgot to add: I actually agree with your points about the word and its usage. I lived in Europe for a bit, met a bunch of folks from all sorts of different countries/cultures; lots and lots of them saw it as simply a crass word; some (notably from Scotland and England) even used it to refer to their best friends, loudly, in public.)

Magicthighs
Guest
Magicthighs
4 years 1 month ago
In this podcast you state that certain people are being “dogmatic” because they insist that one certain anti-harassment policy, which is simply false. In her blogpost at http://freethoughtblogs.com/almostdiamonds/2012/05/22/making-it-safer-in-the-meantime/ Stephanie Zvan clearly calls it “an excellent sample policy you can adapt to your event and your needs”. How on earth is that a mandate to use one specific policy. I also think you misunderstand the word “strict” when they’re talking about a “strict policy”. What they’re talking about is a clear and extensive statement about what sort of behaviour will not be tolerated, and the consequences of such behaviour. I hope… Read more »
Magicthighs
Guest
Magicthighs
4 years 1 month ago

“because they insist that one certain anti-harassment policy”

That should be, “because they insist that once certain anti-harassment policy be adopted by all sceptical gatherings”.

Thaumas Themelios
Guest
4 years 1 month ago
Spence wrote: “The usual reason for running an experiment (as you describe it) is to derive data that is then used to shape your conclusions. It appears that your conclusions are largely independent of the data you gathered during your experiment.” @Sam: I think Spence has a bit of a point here. I think if you review the thread in question, you may find that the evidence of misbehaviour there mostly has to do with MKG jumping the gun. I honestly don’t see much beyond that. I’m pretty sure if there was ‘gen-u-ine’ misogyny in that thread, I missed it… Read more »
Spence
Guest
Spence
4 years 1 month ago
Thanks for your kind comments, Thaumas. On the topic of profanity, I also think people attributing magical properties to words makes little sense. Offence is in the eye of the beholder, and if our goal is not to offend, the unusable word list would be impossible to produce. That said, I usually try to reflect the tone of the person I’m talking to, and I also recognise that this is Sam’s place and if he wants to impose civility rules to post here, then that’s fine. If I don’t like the code, I can always go somewhere else. On the… Read more »
Spence
Guest
Spence
4 years 1 month ago

Hmm, just dawned on me my last comment could be easily misunderstood. By “while it lasts”, I don’t mean it might be cut from this blog, but that Showtime will probably eventually take that video down with a DMCA. Thought I should clear that up 🙂

John Greg
Guest
John Greg
4 years 1 month ago
Sam, I think you have made some good points about Ophelia — it appears she wasn;t always so dogmatic, stubborn, and irrational, but things seem to have changed over the last year or so. Also, your points can be applied to several FfTB blogs and bloggers. Now, like others, I have some questions. 1. How on Earth is calling someone a baboon, misogynistic? Rude, perhaps. Demeaning, certainly. Misogyinstic? Huh? Personally, I think it would be a quality move for you to either explain that truly odd comment, or to withdraw it. 2. How and when is asking legitimate questions, and… Read more »
Sili
Guest
Sili
4 years 1 month ago

@John C. Welsh, et al: I’m not trying to ‘call you out’, but perhaps for the time being we could all agree to use a starred-out version like “c***” or just ‘the c-word’, as a show of willingness to allow the AaA folks to set their desired atmosphere for their own website.

I would hope the objection is to any use of “cunt” at all. Asterisking does not remove the slur.

Presumably we’re allowed to mention “cunt” in discussions of why exactly it’s not something one should call people.

Justicar
Guest
4 years 1 month ago
Thaumas, I have a weird question. Which is worse? a pedophile, a cunt or a dick? No one ever argues that the word pedophile (despite what it entails) needs to be called the ‘p word’ or ‘p********’. I don’t see anyone saying dick should be the ‘d word’ or ‘d***’. It’s just something that’s always struck me as bizarre – the attachment to special words people have. For instance, the selfsame people who are quite content to read literature from around the time of the Civil War object to the word ‘nigger’ appearing, but are quite content to finish the… Read more »
Ophelia Benson
Guest
4 years 1 month ago

“I can understand how Sam may have seen this as stepping too close to the line if he is not familiar with Ophelia’s history of using c**t as a pejorative against those she does approve of. It was a very subtle reference.”

That’s a fucking lie. I’ve never called anyone a cunt in my life.

Justicar
Guest
4 years 1 month ago
I think I believe Ophelia on this one. She’s all along insisted that gendered insults or insults which reduce women (and only women) to their genitals is sexist and wrong. For more information, please see either dick, or Abbie’s slimepit. She also has been consistent all along that it’s not acceptable to post other people’s emails without their express consent. For information, please see any email she’s posted without obtaining the author’s consent (and she even includes full names). Plus I checked her blog real fast, and I can’t a find a single comment or article in which Ophelia herself… Read more »
Fabricio
Guest
Fabricio
4 years 1 month ago

Hey, isn’t it nice? While you keep blabbering about “cunts”, “slime pits”, Ophelia’s Online Privacy Police v 2.0 and crap like that, some feminist protesters at Ukraine may have been kidnapped:

http://www.goal.com/en/news/2898/euro-2012/2012/06/15/3176427/femen-claims-three-members-missing-since-ukraine-arrival

While I think that they certanly exagerate on their motivation, I think it goes without saying that KIDNAPPING the protesters is, in fact, a “big no-no”.

May those American bloggers get some sense of perspective.

John C. Welch
Guest
4 years 1 month ago
Thaumas: “cunt” is just letters. a sound. It is how you USE the word that changes things. Using a word in an illustrative context and calling someone the same word in a hateful manner are two rather different situations. If I’m calling someone something to be hateful, then even if the word I use is “daisy”, in that context, “daisy” is a hateful word. Not because of the word itself, but because I’m using it to be hateful. Ophelia: “That’s a fucking lie. I’ve never called anyone a cunt in my life.” 1) Proof or you’re wrong. Given your age… Read more »
Fabricio
Guest
Fabricio
4 years 1 month ago

To make myself more clear: when I say that I disagree with their motivation, it’s not that I disagree with they protesting about trafficking of women and sexual exploration; I think everyone agrees that it must be stopped everywhere, and some countries may not be taking the matter as seriously as they should. But I disagree with some of their radical positions (like “Euro incentivates sexual tourism”).

John C. Welch
Guest
4 years 1 month ago

Fabricio:

that is truly horrific news. I’ve little hope of a good outcome, but I shall cling to it nonetheless.

however, “dear muslima” should have showed you that such attempts at perspective are just misogynistic and sexist. The fact that three women may be missing or dead doesn’t matter. Someone accused Ophelia of using a bad word!

Darren
Guest
Darren
4 years 1 month ago

Ophelia: “That’s a fucking lie. I’ve never called anyone a cunt in my life.”

Ophelia, I must have got my wires crossed somewhere. I was under the impression that you had (on your blog) at some point. I failed to find any references with google, so I apologise for claiming that you had.

Thaumas Themelios
Guest
4 years 1 month ago
@Justicar: “Thaumas, I have a weird question. Which is worse? a pedophile, a cunt or a dick?” Assuming you mean the words themselves, personally I don’t see words themselves as offensive, so the answer would be none of them. Again, I wasn’t making the suggestion to try to be some sort of language police, but instead to try to send a signal that we’re all taking the new rule seriously. Kind of like when a parent tells a boy, “Stop touching your brother.” And the kid makes poking motions toward his brother saying, “I’m not touching you! I’m not touching… Read more »
Thaumas Themelios
Guest
4 years 1 month ago

@John: “Thaumas:

“cunt” is just letters. a sound. It is how you USE the word that changes things. ”

I assure you I’m 100% in agreement with you on that, and I was only making a suggestion, as a way to signal the raising of a ‘truce flag’, as I mentioned, and elaborated in my reply to Justicar. A ‘show of good faith’, if you will (though I cringe every time I can’t think of an alternative to the f-word; I guess that’s *my* word superstition for the day).

Bernard Duce
Guest
Bernard Duce
4 years 1 month ago

I’d be interested to know whether Ophelia now no longer agrees this view:

“I should add that I don’t feel the smallest compunction about publishing Proyect’s emails, because I never requested them.”

which she states here (after publishing some private email):

http://www.butterfliesandwheels.org/2008/a-correspondence/

Thaumas Themelios
Guest
4 years 1 month ago
@Fabricio: “some feminist protesters at Ukraine may have been kidnapped: http://www.goal.com/en/news/2898/euro-2012/2012/06/15/3176427/femen-claims-three-members-missing-since-ukraine-arrival” I feel your frustration, Fabricio. It’s news like this (and similar stories about religion) that make me frustrated that we aren’t making more progress. But I see this whole thing in the *extreme* long term. Personally, I have very little power. There are so many wrongs I would right if I could, but I’m just one guy, with very few resources, surrounded by a vast population of people most of whom either a) have no real awareness of the problems in the world, or b) see the problems, but… Read more »
Justicar
Guest
4 years 1 month ago
To make your example more relevant, it’s more like a parent telling a child to stop touching his brother to which the child points out that at the time of the alleged offense he was staying the night over at Bobby’s house and thus didn’t touch his brother. Someone merely saying x happened and then proceeding from there as though it did (until it turns out that it didn’t, but even then) decides that the corrective measure which wasn’t needed in the first place is the proper way to solve a crisis. That never existed. And now, as a response… Read more »
Justicar
Guest
4 years 1 month ago

Rather a pedestrian clause in there needs sharpening. Last sentence, third to last paragraph should read:

“And it dare be said that it’s we whose world doesn’t come to a grinding halt because someone, somewhere used words we don’t like who have the apologizing to do?”

Thaumas Themelios
Guest
4 years 1 month ago
“To make your example more relevant, it’s more like a parent telling a child to stop touching his brother to which the child points out that at the time of the alleged offense he was staying the night over at Bobby’s house and thus didn’t touch his brother.” Yes, from *your* perspective. But Sam clearly doesn’t share the same perspective. Also, in my example, I may have been unclear: I didn’t intend to say that anyone here had been doing the poking thing saying “I’m not touching you!” Only that regular, open usage of the c-word — all while technically… Read more »
Thaumas Themelios
Guest
4 years 1 month ago
“And it dare be said that it’s we whose world doesn’t come to a grinding halt because someone, somewhere used words we don’t like who have the apologizing to do?” Interesting you mention that word. I have long been advocating an approach of unapologetic criticism, or unapologetic atheism (I’ve since wrapped that up into my advocacy of ‘gnu atheism’). See http://gnuatheism.wikispaces.com/unapologetic+atheist (There are lots of red links in there; stick with the blue ones, especially the external links; I’ve kind of stalled on developing that wiki, part of my ongoing struggles with ADHD, but I’m hoping to spark it up… Read more »
John Greg
Guest
John Greg
4 years 1 month ago
Sam and Becky, while it appears, and please check the precise definition of “appears”, that you have both flounced your own discussion, and decided, without observing for yourselves, that ERV is evil, and FfTB is to some degree worthy of respect, I would very much like to direct you to Phawrongula: http://phawrongula.wikia.com/wiki/Phawrongula_Wiki While it may not be perfect, it does something that NO FfTB bloggers and commenters do: it provides links, screenshots, and citations to back up its accusations and claims. Yes, yes, yes, it is somewhat angry, and in its specific and resourced referencing of the profound deceit of… Read more »
John C. Welch
Guest
4 years 1 month ago
Ah Ophelia. Dear Ophelia. Dear, Wonderful, Unthinking Ophelia. I knew, just knew, were I patient, you’d eventually give me the world. Or at least this, aka comment #165 on this post – http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterfliesandwheels/2012/03/i-get-email/: “It’s not an excuse, you stupid man. It’s my reason. I don’t need an excuse. You had no business sending me that email in the first place. I did nothing the least bit wrong in publishing it. You sent it to me: it’s mine: I published it.” You Sent It To Me. It’s Mine. I Published It. That may be the sweetest thing you have ever said… Read more »
RB760
Guest
RB760
4 years 1 month ago
@ John C. Welch (#10346) LOL!!! That’s great!!! She gets mad about her e-mail being made public; an e-mail which was she expected a response from a group of people who were criticizing her, but she made someone else’s e-mail public. Outstanding! Also, if I were an activist or some sort of a public figure, and engaged in a discussion with someone who is criticizing me, I would be very certain that everything I said in e-mails are things that I wouldn’t mind being made public. After all, if I’m right, then what do I have to hide? And if… Read more »
RB760
Guest
RB760
4 years 1 month ago

er… typo… *an e-mail which she was expecting a response….

Justicar
Guest
4 years 1 month ago
Thaumas, no, the analogizing bit wasn’t in reference to you. It’s the backlash from the FfTB that immediately attended those who are unpersuaded that Rebecca Watson was nearly raped and was lucky to escape the elevator of death with her skin intact. (or that elevatorguy even exists – we do have a picture of everyone in the bar–minus PZ who was taking the picture–and Watson can’t seem to spot the bad man in the picture). Anyway, another discussion for another time. “Yes, from *your* perspective. But Sam clearly doesn’t share the same perspective.” Apparently, he clearly does for he had… Read more »
Justicar
Guest
4 years 1 month ago

Oh, Thaumas, with respect to your wiki, you might like the term ‘gnusade’, which is a bit of cheeky maneuver pulled by Jerry Coyne to coopt the uncommon descent people’s attempts to caricature Coyne: http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2012/05/08/in-which-we-co-opt-a-creationist-caricature/

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